Should #11 Be Retired? Options

[yves_on_habs]

Meant to say he was better surrounded early in his career and then at the end in Montreal.

I just wrote a little something on my blog about it.

[cup crazy88]

BG wasn't a goal scorer, but his number is retired for a reason. He lead the team with leadership and raised the standard for defensive player among forwards. In fact, they probably should have named it the Bob Gainey trophy instead of the Selke. He won it the first four years of its existence, more then any other player. Only one player has won it 3 times either, and that is Carbo. Winner of 7 Stanley Cups, Conn Smythe trophy winner and member of the NHL hall of fame.

You don't need to be a 100 pt player, you need to excel in what you do, even go above and beyond. Koivu did neither.

He may be the closest thing to a retired jersey by our generations standards, but that shouldn't be a reason to retire a jersey. It's not his fault we had crappy management but he should be rewarded for it. And we all know koivu is an outstanding citizen, and human being. But so are a lot of non-hall of fame'rs and non retired jersey ppl.

And yes, Koivu is sub-par. Why? because average is a relative term, we are not talking about 'the average NHL'er' we are talking about the average player who get's their jersey retired by the Habs. He will not get into the HHOF.. and just for kicks and giggles, how many with their jerseys already retired arn't in the Hall?..

there is a reason why.

This post has been edited by cup crazy88: Aug 3 2009, 03:33 PM

[yves_on_habs]

Honestly.

Not sure how he can be considered sub-par statistically, as a person or citizen.

Playing through a span of "the dark ages" in Montreal, his numbers compare to the greats of the organisation.

[yves_on_habs]

You don't need to be a 100 pt player, you need to excel in what you do, even go above and beyond. Koivu did neither.
....
And yes, Koivu is sub-par. Why? because average is a relative term, we are not talking about 'the average NHL'er' we are talking about the average player who get's their jersey retired by the Habs. He will not get into the HHOF.. and just for kicks and giggles, how many with their jerseys already retired arn't in the Hall?..

What exactly do you think he should have done to be considered "on par" or above in beyond?

Here's how he finishes his career all-time in the canadiens uniform:
2nd longest serving captain
5th power play goals
6th in assists
7th game winning goals
8th short handed goals
9th minutes played
10th in points
19th games played
27th goals scored

Those numbers keeping in mind that he played on mediocre teams and was the heart of the team for many a year.

Not sure that "Hall of fame" is a criteria for having a banner, but rather what a player did and meant for the organisation.

In my opinion, his numbers speak volumes in that he played in a dark age.

Sub par? No.

[Regis]

He has those #'s because he spent 13 years with the Habs .

Shoudl # 11 be retired, still no .

[HabbiesMan]

No, no and.... NO!

Wrong answer

[yves_on_habs]

He has those #'s because he spent 13 years with the Habs .

Shoudl # 11 be retired, still no .

about 10 of them in dark ages.

I'm still not sure why he's being considered sub par by some people.

Especially since he played and played well in those dark ages.

Is it because he didn't "win it all"?

It took Mario Lemieux quite a few years to have a team built around him in order to win.

[tony5775]

It will be a nice night when he retires to say goodbye to him. But not the number 11. Otherwise lets say goodbye to Lambert, he gave us some good memories.

[ChitownHabby]

Let's settle it gentleman. Saku Koivu deserves a spot in the Ring of Honour, nothing more nothing less.

http://canadiens.nhl.com/team/app?articlei...mp;service=page

Make him the 45th player. Not a Hall of Famer but well deserving of lasting tribute at the Bell(Molson) Center whenever he's retired. 14 retired numbers achieved more than Koivu but even the harshest Saku critic can admit he belongs in the same breathe as the other 30. I know he's not in the Hall of Fame but if Denis Savard and Rod Langway get lasting tributes in Montreal, Saku Koivu better get SOMETHING!

[chromedome]

i called him subpar and i will call him subpar again..and A) i am 29 yrs old been watching the habs faithfully since 1985 C) I speak english and know the definition of subpar and even looked it up for you

sub·par (sb-pär)
adj.
1. Not measuring up to traditional standards of performance, value, or production.

Lets look at the first part of this definition..."Not measuring up to traditional standards of performance" hmmmm i dont even think i need to explain that..........

"value" hmmmm thats up for debate. i dont think he was over paid and was valuable to the team in other ways.

"production" hmmmmm lol...i think i already covered that with my last post

so there "cheif"

[edited - you can make your point without making personal attacks - AK]


I pick All three






lol...i knew i shouldnt have started this with a bunch of saku fans....and yes i have watched all of his career. He is subpar.....just accept this. his stats back me up.....recchi, zednik who ever...........all the numbers that are retired...those people made the people around them better...saku didnt make everyone around him better....this is fact.....i am not making this up.....and if i was a mod, thread closed! lol

I am more than twice your age,and have had the benefit of watching all of those retired nos. play with the exception of #7Morenz.There is not one among them that I would consider belonging any more than Saku!You may not be "only 16"but you obviously don't have the level of hockey smarts that you seem to think your "age" has brought you to!..Sorry,I don't really mean to offend,but sometimes the young whippersnappers need to be jolted into reality a little bit!Hopefully you can take this as a little bit of a wake-up call through constructive criticism not meant to be insulting!I guess this will depend on how much maturity being 29 has brought you.

[yves_on_habs]

Let's settle it gentleman. Saku Koivu deserves a spot in the Ring of Honour, nothing more nothing less.

http://canadiens.nhl.com/team/app?articlei...mp;service=page

Make him the 45th player. Not a Hall of Famer but well deserving of lasting tribute at the Bell(Molson) Center whenever he's retired. 14 retired numbers achieved more than Koivu but even the harshest Saku critic can admit he belongs in the same breathe as the other 30. I know he's not in the Hall of Fame but if Denis Savard and Rod Langway get lasting tributes in Montreal, Saku Koivu better get SOMETHING!

Exactly.

I'm really not sure what the beef against him is.

Anyone have a particular reason why he shouldn't have his number retired other then not liking him?

[lesfoldi]

the only reason this subpar player should have his number retired is so that we dont have to see another player wearing number 11 and bring back the memories of the canadiens worst decade in history



This post has been edited by lesfoldi: Aug 3 2009, 08:39 PM

[lesfoldi]

I am more than twice your age,and have had the benefit of watching all of those retired nos. play with the exception of #7Morenz.There is not one among them that I would consider belonging any more than Saku!You may not be "only 16"but you obviously don't have the level of hockey smarts that you seem to think your "age" has brought you to!..Sorry,I don't really mean to offend,but sometimes the young whippersnappers need to be jolted into reality a little bit!Hopefully you can take this as a little bit of a wake-up call through constructive criticism not meant to be insulting!I guess this will depend on how much maturity being 29 has brought you.

lol. i respect your opinion, but what are you talking about? those other players you are speaking of have all brought championships to this team. yes i am only 29 but i have been watching the habs for aslong as i can remember. i saw the cup in 86, a shot at 89 and the roy show in 93. I have watched every habs game faithfully for years(when i can) i dont speak a lick of french but sit there and watch rds glued to the tv singing et la but. I think that alone should allow myself to have an opinion on whose jersey should be retired.besides i never acted like i am"hockey smart" i acted like i was smart because i understand the definition of the words i use! Ring of honor? for sure! no player ever to wear a habs jersey with the number 11 on the back? it makes me laugh! i am sorry! it is funny! he was a subpar player but an amazing human who has something everyone in the world could learn from. Name a road after him, name a hospital after him but dont retire his jersey! just silly talk!

This post has been edited by lesfoldi: Aug 3 2009, 08:53 PM

[yves_on_habs]

the only reason this subpar player should have his number retired is so that we dont have to see another player wearing number 11 and bring back the memories of the canadiens worst decade in history

What's the justification in calling him sub par?

Statistically he's not sub par at all.

He ranks among the best.

[Regis]

Anyone have a particular reason why he shouldn't have his number retired other then not liking him?

I like him
I also don't think his accomplishments as a hockey player merit having his jersey retired

[yves_on_habs]

I like him
I also don't think his accomplishments as a hockey player merit having his jersey retired

Did you check his stats where he ranks all time as a Montreal Canadien?

It's quite a feat. Especially playing in those dark ages.

[chromedome]

He has those #'s because he spent 13 years with the Habs .
Shoudl # 11 be retired, still no .

So,...I wonder how many of our currently retired nos.you would drop off the rafters if they had not played 13 years(or more) as a hab?You can't have it both ways!If those retired players had ended up playing on other teams whgile accumulating their stats,would you be so quick to say that they deserved to be hung from "our rafters" just because they wore a Habs jersey at some point of their careers?If that's the case,How come we don't have Tony Esposito's no.retired and hanging up there? Give me a break!Don't try to justify silly decision making with double standard examples!

[Regis]

So,...I wonder how many of our currently retired nos.you would drop off the rafters if they had not played 13 years(or more) as a hab?

Well, if they didn't have such great hockey statistics AND contribute to winning Stanley Cups while with the Montreal candiens I would probably knock some off .

Saku has admirable stats but has never won anything of significance

Hey , it's only my opinon , if the organization wants to hang his jersey from the rafters because he was Captain of the Habs for 13 years , go for it . Might as well retire Brisebois' while we're at it

[chromedome]

lol. i respect your opinion, but what are you talking about? those other players you are speaking of have all brought championships to this team. yes i am only 29 but i have been watching the habs for aslong as i can remember. i saw the cup in 86, a shot at 89 and the roy show in 93. I have watched every habs game faithfully for years(when i can) i dont speak a lick of french but sit there and watch rds glued to the tv singing et la but. I think that alone should allow myself to have an opinion on whose jersey should be retired.besides i never acted like i am"hockey smart" i acted like i was smart because i understand the definition of the words i use! Ring of honor? for sure! no player ever to wear a habs jersey with the number 11 on the back? it makes me laugh! i am sorry! it is funny! he was a subpar player but an amazing human who has something everyone in the world could learn from. Name a road after him, name a hospital after him but dont retire his jersey! just silly talk!

Ok!I guess I'll just have to accept that you probably have been adversely effected by the seasalt and can't come to grips with normal thinking!
By the way,my wife and I loved Halifax in 06/ when they had the 100th anniversary of the changing of the guard at the Citadel.We have tons of pictures at the event.We were there (in Halifax)to attend a wedding of a friend of ours that took place on a Tallship in the Halifax Harbor!We had a wonderful time and,I can confirm to anyone out there that it's true what they say about how fiendly they are in the Maritimes!

[yves_on_habs]

I'm still trying to figure out why some people are thinking Saku was "sub par".

I'll trespass into the nostalgic for fun and lets compare 2 players and where they rank in the history of the Montreal Canadiens.

Saku Koivu totals - playing in the dark ages
Games played : 792 - 19th all time
Goals scored : 191 - 27th all time
Assists : 450 - 6th all time
Points : 641 - 10th all time
Career point per game : 0.80

Dickie Moore totals - playing in a golden age
Games played : 654 - 28th all time
Goals scored : 254 - 14th all time
Assists : 340 - 16th all time
Points : 594 - 13th all time
Career point per game : 0.90

The point of this is to compare Koivu to a legendary Habs player who had his number retired keeping in mind who Dickie Moore had to play with..

Some of Dickie Moore's team mates?
Rocket Richard, Elmer Lach, Bernard Geoffrion, Doug Harvey, Émile Bouchard,Jean Béliveau, Henri Richard, Ralph Backstrom, Bobby Rousseau

Those were some of Dickie Moore's team mates for many years.

Who could we compare to those players that played with Koivu for the last 13 years.
Not many.

Saku's point per game is just below Moores average. I'll be a dollar if Koivu would have had a Rocket and a Belliveau or an Elmer Lach... his average would be a bit higher.

I honestly can't understand how some people have stated that Saku's performance has been sub par. Because in the history of the habs, his numbers speak quite the opposite.

If you don't like him. That's ok.

But please acknowledge what he's accomplished without the team that our many greats have had.